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Civil Wars of Ideas http://www.wwnorton.com/college/english/nael/17century/topic_3/welcome.htm
John Milton on Samson http://www.wwnorton.com/college/english/nael/17century/topic_3/samson.htm
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Question:
After reading Milton's Poem on page 445 below On The New Forcers..., why is Milton (the poet, not the teacher!) so upset about the Presbyterians and the Parliament?
Read who the people in the poem were
John Milton was upset because people of that time trusted on the Presbyterians but they "betrayed" the people and so did the Parlamentarians. this is my personal opinion
ReplyDeleteIn other words, if people did not believe in the Presbyterian creed they would be treated as heretics because that was like the official religion stipulated by the Parliament; according to Milton that religion was foolishing to people.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I think Milton was upset about the Presbyterians and the Parliament due to presbyterians in Parliament replaced the ideals of religious liberty with a new orthodoxy. He was a defender of the liberty. I'm not sure.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlso Milton was upset with the parliament because they ignore his pamphlet "Areopagitica"and months after that the parliament, published a william Prynne document that supported the presbytherians.
ReplyDeleteMilton was upset with the presbytherians because he present the most conroversial work "Areopagitica", in that document milton express a serie of ideas about free expresion in all the aspects (political, religious, etc) and the presbytherians were against those ideas. Why? because the presbytherians wanted to have the population under their power, so the presbytherians did not want tha the people know about milton`s free expresion ideas.
ReplyDeleteMilton caused a revolution in that time with that document, he presented ideas that were agains the stablish ideas or laws, so that caused a "gran revuelo" into the dominant clases, the church (now presented as: presbytherians, a sub division of the chatolic church.)
ReplyDeleteAreopagitica, offer to the world the right to free expression and press freedome.
If you want to know more about the Areopagitica, visit that website:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/areopagitica/index.shtml
There you will find plenty of Milton`s works, including the most famous and controversial:
Areopagitica
According to what I understood, Milton was upset because the Presbyterians were introducing a new doctrine where the principles of religion liberty were being replaced. From his point of view, these people wanted to impose others their doctrinaire beliefs as a law. People did not have the freedom to believe what they considered appropriate but what Presbyterians enforced.
ReplyDeleteI think he was upset since the parliamentary ordinances, from Milton's point of view, were replacing the ideals of religious liberty with the acceptance of a new faith that was pointing to be a mandatory for everyone. Also, Milton may have felt that presbyterians were trying to impose their religion in order to make their beliefs as a law. I belive Milton wanted freedom for the people in order for them to decide the doctrine they considered better, and tolerance for the different religions.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, he was upset because presbyterians were adopting the old doctrines that church used to apply in the the previous centuries (10th-16th.) It was taking away the freedom or liberty that humans had reached.
ReplyDeleteHe was upset with presbyterians because they had corrupted the truth. They accused him and some other people of being "heretcis" just because they had a new ideal of liberty and freedom. The presbyteriand were supported by parliament and they pretty much controlled the country at the time. Since he thought the parliament was being manpulated by presbyterians he was against both of them. As dany said on his work "Areopagitica" he presented some revolutionary ideas that caused a big commotion among the uper classes.
ReplyDeleteHe was upset because of the new changes in the religious doctrines. He was simply trying to defend human's freedom to choose what to believe. The presbyterians wanted to force people to join a specific religious group. I think that Milton was considered to be a rebel because he didn't accept the new doctrine and he fought against the powerful parliament.
ReplyDeleteMilton was an extremist defender of the liberty and he was in the right to do it due to presbyterians didn't have the right to choose or impose the religion or the doctrines of people from that time.
ReplyDeleteMilton's ideas about religion were changing. At that time, he thought that Presbyterians were having a big influence on people, even when those are not good at all. In fact, Milton was critical because Presbyterians were gaining power at the parliament and besides they manipulated laws and trusted people to believe in what they considered correct.
ReplyDeleteMilton was upset because the Presbyterian wanted to change the doctrine of the church because they were against the religious and they did not like the good ideas that Milton had for the reason that Milton was based on the freedom to express ideas. Also, because Presbyterians manipulated the parliament and that did not like to Milton that right he was against them and he felt disappointed with that.
ReplyDeleteProfessor, I have problems with this question in quizz 7.
ReplyDelete"God again declares, that grace cannot be extended towards man without the satisfaction of divine justice"
I'm pretty sure the answer is "book III" but it always appears like incorrect.
Am I wrong or is the system?
Does someone have the same problem? let me know if I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteThat's true Oscar, there is a problem with that question. You should try to do it again until that question is no longer part of the quiz.. that's what I did :D
ReplyDeleteThanks for your help patty. I thought I was the only one with that problem.
ReplyDeleteI have done the quizz four times and that questions is following me. I think I have answered all the question but I have bad luck with that one.
Good idea Patricia! But... the question is not wrong... keep trying.
ReplyDeleteSorry Oscar, I do not have that problem. The question is not wrong, it have an answer, I found it,the answer is.....
ReplyDeleteLol, is a joke but it have answer.
In the quizz the correct answer is Book I. But in the Paradise Lost`s books that phrase or sentence appears in book number III. ¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?
ReplyDeleteI still think the quizz is wrong.
Book I: In a long, twisting opening sentence mirroring the epic poetry of the Ancient Greeks, the poet invokes the "Heavenly Muse" (the Holy Spirit) and states his theme, the Fall of Man, and his aim, to "justify the ways of God to men." Satan, Beelzebub, and the other rebel angels are described as lying on a lake of fire, from which Satan rises up to claim Hell as his own domain and delivers a rousing speech to his followers ("Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.").The logic of Satan (Satanic Logic) is introduced by: "The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."
ReplyDeleteBook III: God observes Satan's journey and foretells how Satan will bring about Man's Fall. God emphasises, that the Fall will come about as a result of Man's own free will, and excuses himself of responsibility. The Son of God offers himself as a ransom for Man's disobedience, an offer which God accepts, ordaining the Son's future incarnation and punishment. Satan arrives at the rim of the universe, disguises himself as an angel, and is directed to Earth by Uriel, Guardian of the Sun.
ReplyDeleteI have to correct my mistake in this commentary: "(now presented as: presbytherians, a sub division of the chatolic church.)"
ReplyDeleteThe mistake is: that the presbytherians were not a subdivision of the chatolic church, it was kind of different religion that in 17th century wanted to imposed their religion or beliefs to all that people
Wow, it's really surprising to know that Charles I of England was beheaded. He was weird, it was said that his dogma was not well defined, maybe he wanted to take advantage of religious matters. Now, going back with the presbyterians, I read they were kind of a surviving religious system of the pre-reformation, and also that Presbyterianism was based on the teachings of john Calvin, and suposedly, this doctrine believed in predestination, god was the one who controlled destiny.
ReplyDeleteI think Milton was upset with the Presbyterians and the Parliament because of the restrictions on the liberty of the press they had worked for. I think he felt upset because this law was against what he wrote.
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ReplyDeleteThe statement "God again declares, that grace cannot be extended towards man without the satisfaction of divine justice" is from Book III, even though the quiz's system is taking Book I as the correct answer. The answer which is taking the system is wrong, if you find that this info is not accurate, let me know.
ReplyDeleteHere is the link to the google doc:Book III
is true the answer is book III not book I the quiz sistem is wrong
ReplyDeleteI like it when students challenge something! This is it! The system was not wrong, I entered the wrong information. I'm happy you took the time to find the error and let everyone know... thanks!
ReplyDelete"God again declares, that grace cannot be extended towards man without the satisfaction of divine justice"
This is indeed in Book 3.
John Milton was a really defender of the liberty of religion. He always opposed to the church´s control because he knew that the church used the power only to satisfy its own interests. Milton did believe that every man has the right to freedom since it was the best way to advance in the truth. He played an active role defending liberty, that´s why he was against the Presbyterians because they wanted to rule others imposing their beliefs.
ReplyDeleteThe presbyterians were a group of very intelligent people because they looked for the parliament support. And people, except from Milton, didn't want to have problems with them.
ReplyDeleteAhh, the Presbyterians... Does anyone know a presbyterian? What do they believe?
ReplyDeleteI dont know a presbyterian, but I think they believe in a "destiny" forged by god, that everything happens by god's will.
ReplyDeleteI don't know any presbyterian, but they believe in the authority of the Bible, that means they believe in God's sovereignty. For them God is the supreme authority throughout the universe.
ReplyDeleteWell... I don´t know any presbyterian either... What they believe is that people are saved through Jesus Christ, they are justified by him not for their own accomplishments because the salvation is a God´s gift that every person can get through faith, in others words humans are saved by grace.
ReplyDeleteI think he was upset because the rights of the people weren't respected, they were abused and that's not what he was hoped for. (samuel)
ReplyDeleteI do not know one but they believe in jesus as the head o the church and their doctrines are based in the bible and the calvinist.
ReplyDeleteThey are part of the reformated churches.
More information about calvinist:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
I think that Milton was upset because the presbiterian church and the catholic church took people liberties and wanted to keep them tied to the "rules."
ReplyDeleteI don't know any presbyterian but as I've read they believe that some people are predestinated to live forever, that free will is heresy and that Jesus died just for the chosen ones not for all people as we know.
ReplyDeleteWell, first of all Milton believed that the Parliamentary ordinances were replacing the ideals of religious liberty with a new practice or belief; this by the time the Presbyterians were in Parliament. Milton presents Presbyterians as the most authoritarian and Illiberal and as the new generation of theological dictators. He also compares them with the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
ReplyDeletePresbyterians believe that there are only two sacraments: infant baptism and The Lord’s supper. They believe that only faith is enough to save them and do not consider doing good actions to be helpful. They also believe that no learning that is explicitly or implicitly addressed in the bible should be taught. They do not worship any Saint, dead’s prayers and they do not believe in Maria as a virgin.
Acording what I read, presbyterians belong to the same category to protestants, they got the same beliefs, however they have a especial feature: they mix religion with politic, which for my point of view it's incorrect.
ReplyDelete